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Groomers BBS » Breed Styles and Grooming Techniques » NORTHERN & OTHER DOUBLE COATED BREEDS » I need pictures/articles against shaving double coated breeds « Previous Next »

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nwdpuppy
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Username: nwdpuppy

Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2008
Posted From: 209.180.202.194
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 12:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have so many people asking me right now to shave down their goldens, shepherd mixes, border collies etc. I always give them the rote information that if they haven't had it done before, there is a chance the hair won't grow back correctly, and that the hair acts as protection against the sun and insulation to keep them cool. Usually when I tell them that the hair might not grow back the same way, they usually change their mind and go with my alternative: Shave the belly and trim up the feathering nice and tight.

What I would like for my website however would be pictures of Goldens or other double coated dogs who have been shaved and their hair has been allowed to grow in and show how it's lost the luster of the guard hairs etc.

Also any good articles against the why's would be great. Google is nice (it's how I found this place after all), but still difficult to find exactly what I am looking for.

Thanks for any info! :-)
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mylady
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Username: mylady

Post Number: 1011
Registered: 3-1999
Posted From: 70.109.116.78
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 12:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The only reason a dog wouldn't grow back properly would be if the dog had an underlying medical condition, such as thyroid problems. You might want to google searches for that. The guard haris grow in much more slowly, but in a healthy dog they WILL return and the coat will regain the luster. I don't like shaving down double coats, but have come to terms with it. Sometimes it's the hair goes or the dog does as most of my clients do it to help with shedding. I'd rather they lose the hair!
"Pugs, not Drugs"
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catsmom
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Username: catsmom

Post Number: 1795
Registered: 7-2001
Posted From: 205.188.116.6
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 2:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Amen, mylady! It's only hair. I have the dog for a few hours, they live with it 24/7. If a smoothie makes 24/7 happy, I say go for it. I do, however, try and educate those that do it because of the heat. I might try and talk them into a snap on comb length instead of a smoothie.
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doggygirl
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Username: doggygirl

Post Number: 3836
Registered: 9-2002
Posted From: 156.34.190.80
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 5:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think there always has to be an underlying health problem. It happened to my dog who was a retriever mix. The undercoat grew in the patchy areas but not the long hairs. Eventually, a few months later, it did but not as fast as other times. Of course many times it likely is a health issue but I don't think always. I don't even think it lessens shedding as the dog still sheds the finer bits of hair. I found that out also. LOL! I used to think the exact same mylady but over time I'm thinking it may not be so cut and dry but that being said, if I groomed big dogs I would shave them if I saw no reason not to. I had to shave a sheltie (gasp) the other day.
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rpg
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Username: rpg

Post Number: 994
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.7.241.154
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 6:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

doggygirl :o)
How do you know there was no underlying health problem if you never did any testing? No offense meant, just asking :o)
When we get a hair cut - even shave our heads; if it doesn't grow back properly/evenly; we don't go; ohhhh we must have shaved too close, or blame the barber, or the equipment. We go to the doctor......
I fully believe we should be doing the same thing for our pets as well.
Healthy coat, healthy pet, good health issues. SOmething doesn't work properly; then something must be out of whack......., no?
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groomnpoodles
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Username: groomnpoodles

Post Number: 1149
Registered: 3-2002
Posted From: 71.32.152.172
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 8:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, but I disagree about shaving double-coats. Some who have been shaved down grow coats that are horribly dense and difficult to brush. Others grow back sparse and mangey looking with nothing but undercoat-- the guard hairs are gone. Still others grow back just fine, altho heavier than they were before. I strongly disagree with shaving double-coated dogs. I will go no shorter than a '0' comb personally, but prefer the 'C' or 'E' comb length on heavier coated dogs. The risk of sunburn, especially at higher elevations, is a definite risk. The coat is there for a reason and altering that protection can cause problems. There has been numerous threads on this particular subject here and you might do a search to get various perspectives, but I personally strongly discourage this practice to my clients. 99% of them are in agreement after I explain the con's of it to them. Especially those who have had their dogs shaved in the past and now wonder why their coats have changed so drastically and aren't as pretty as they used to be. After a couple of grooming sessions with bath/remoisturizer/HV and carding, 9 times out of 10 the coats are on their way to restoration. Most canine dermatologists discourage shaving according to seminars that I've attended, so I use that reasoning as well.
Grooming under the Tetons
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mylady
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Username: mylady

Post Number: 1012
Registered: 3-1999
Posted From: 70.109.116.78
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 9:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There was another thread on this where studies show cutting the hair will not change it. What can change how the dog grows back is a health issue. Many go undetected very easily. Unless all these dogs you speak of have been thoroughly tested for health issues after the sahve you cannot say it was just because of shaving. There are also things like hormones that change over time. If it's an older dog, it's very possible the coat took longer to grow back, but it did grow back.
I used to think the same thing and would tell owners the coat might not grow back properly, but I also explained it would then need to be checked by the vet. I don't care for it, but I'll do it.
Clippering a coat isn't good for ANY dog, so will you stop shaving shnauzers, cockers, etc? Of course not. I coat card after shaving any dog to try to help the coat stay healthy as clippering the coat short does interfere with their normal shedding process and can lead to clogged pours and oily skin etc.
I will tell owners how the coat works, warn not to let the dog bake in the sun for hours, but 99% still want it shaved and everyone who has it done says it "gets rid" of the shedding. Well no, it doesn't, but it makes the hairs shedding out smaller/less noticeable and it does interfere with teh shedding (as I said before lol) and can cut down on the shedding because of that. I used to give the long drawn out speechess, but what I found was most clients wanted the shave anyway.
"Pugs, not Drugs"
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bbird
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Username: bbird

Post Number: 570
Registered: 3-2000
Posted From: 69.9.29.177
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 9:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is an argument that will probably never be resolved. One can always argue that poor regrowth is due to some "underlying health issue." How does one determine if an animal is in perfect health? I don't think it is that simple as to write off poor regrowth as a health problem, although there ARE health problems, especially thyroid deficiency that will affect hair growth.

In 38+ years of grooming, I have seen too many instances of poor regrowth on double coated dogs to be attributed to health problems. Those coats are not intended for clipping. Sometimes a shave down (#7 blade or shorter) SEEMS to create a basic change in the structure of the coat. Something seems to happen at the follicle level, and the follicles do not support the same relationship of guard hair to undercoat. I have seen the coat regrow sparse and patchy, and I've seen it come in dense and thick. I've also seen the undercoat come back rather wirey and not so soft, making future carding twice as difficult as with the virgin coat.

I wish we could get a scientific handle on this and move it beyond the argument level, but probably not in my lifetime, as I will probably not win the lottery and be funded to do all the research I have in my mind about dog hair. This is certainly an area worth more information.

Meanwhile, as we wait for me to inherit a fortune or win the lottery, I'll share with you another of my dog hair "theories", which is that undercoated dogs need a certain amount of coat to act as insulation from the heat source. I found some support for this idea in an online article written by a physicist who owns an undercoated breed. Unfortunately, I've lost the link, but this scientist suggested that the undercoat hairs actually dissipate the heat so that the skin does not receive the full impact of the heat.

I explain this to customers like this: which would you rather live in, a house with a thick insulated roof, or a house with a tin roof. When we strip off all the coat, we are forcing the dog to live in a body with a tin roof. (so to speak).

Just yesterday, we were discussing a grooming tragedy that happened to a groomer friend of a listmate. The groomer shaved a OAY St. Bernard and put it in an outdoor run. She returned in 45 minutes to find the dog dead. It was 95 degrees and very humid. The run was covered with a tarp. Heat stroke? Possible!

This week I got a call from a man who owns two Bernese Mtn Dogs. The vet had referred him to me. He had the dogs shorn for the summer. One developed what appeared to be a hot spot overnight following the clippering and it spread into a raging and resistant staph infection involving nearly half the dog's body. It took six weeks of aggressive antibiotic therapy to save the dog. Did the groomer cause a clipper abrasion with unclean clippers? (vet's theory). Did the dog have an underlying poor immune system? (probably) Should the coat have been clipped off in the first place? (not by me, it wouldn't)

Point is...I am not so sure we are doing dogs a big favor by shaving them for the summer. I am firmly implanted in the don't shave column.
BBird writes for groomers - http://Groomblog.blogspot.com
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sarahjane
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Username: sarahjane

Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 87.201.182.36
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 9:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of the most sensible posts I have ever read. Thank you, bbird.

I have felt - for years - that double-coated breeds should NOT be clipped/shaved down for summer because the coat insulates the body from the heat as well as the cold, but I've yet to read a truly scientific reason for it!

I wish you could find that link so I could pass it on to groomers in my area because -- try as I might -- it's nigh on impossible to stress too much that I do NOT want my shih tzu dogs clipped for summer.

I am ex-London, now living in Dubai and you would not believe the hassle I have had trying to find a groomer who will care for my dogs in full coat in summer. All I want is a close clip on their tummies, sanitary and paw pad trim and I have almost come to blows with groomers who just want to do wholesale shave-downs. It's almost as if the groomer needs constant supervision to do the job I want -- and yes, the language barrier is a problem too because -- with apologies -- so many groomers don't understand what you want [lots of salons are owned by western expats but staffed by Philipinos, Indians etc].

Let me assure you, I have had shih tzu in Australia with no air-conditioning AND in London and now in Dubai and all my dogs have been full-coated with NO skin issues, hot spots, allergies, clipping rash etc. And they have all been blissfully happy.

And if any forward-thinking groomer out there wants to make a fresh start in the Middle East, I for one would be first in the queue to pay MAJOR beans for good service!

Sorry. Rant over. xxx
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mylady
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Username: mylady

Post Number: 1013
Registered: 3-1999
Posted From: 70.18.110.55
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 2:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I find it a little ironic that the last thread this was discussed I had stated that I felt shaving the dogs did change the coat, the thickness, the coarseness and density but no one else seemed to agree and all the information in that thread pointed to other causes besides shaving, things such as hormonal changes, health issues etc, so I felt there was enough info there to change my mind. Now in this thread there is more info seeming to seque the other way! Isn't it frustrating that there can't just be a clear black and white answer!?!
"Pugs, not Drugs"
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sittinpretty
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Username: sittinpretty

Post Number: 72
Registered: 3-2007
Posted From: 70.232.102.25
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 3:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There much be a bunch of unhealthy double coated dogs here, since majority of them do not grow their hair back the same. Clipping the coats can change the texture of wire haired coats then why not double coated dogs? Majority of our poms, goldens, akitas, and collies that we shave down have patches that do not grow back. I think the percentage of dogs that do not grow correctly compared to those that do is to high to say that it is strictly a health problem. But that is just mho.
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3dogs
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Username: 3dogs

Post Number: 417
Registered: 6-2002
Posted From: 76.6.17.124
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 4:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I like to keep double coats full or at least scissored but on 2 occasions these past few weeks I have had to take down a Keeshond & a Chow Mix. The Kess is a very old arthritic dog that wobbles in the legs when standing & it take 2 of us to do the dog so he is steady enough for the grooming. He is NOT brushed in between grooms & so far is always matted. This last time she wanted a haircut but there is no way on this old dog now that it takes 2 to DEMAT the dog then use a Snap on Comb & then scissor. I had to take the coat down short & the poor thing was still wobbling. The Chow mix has had 3 Knee & hip Surgeries, is Old & is OVERWEIGHT & the last groom was 5 1/2 months ago with no brushing or care at all. When the dog walked in I took 1 look & said I was taking the dog short. Last time I groomed the dog I did the demat & the groomer before stopped scissoring the hind end because this dog couldn't stand at all. So now I have to take this dog down & my DH helps hold the dog up. The matting was so tight on it's rear end that to ever demat would be animal abuse in my books. When he got done he looked great & was happy. The owner not so happy since her vet was for keeping double coats blah, blah, blah in the past. They did take the dog to the vet just for it's regular check up with all of it's problems & the husband came in a few days later & said the VET said it was the right thing to do & he wouldn't get sunburn & I did a good job. They thanked me since the VET gave them the o.k.
Anyway, I love the poms & keeshunds in their natural state but I have learned that 1. I don't live with the dog, 2. sometimes it is a must due to health issues, & coat issues 3. If it means the owners are happy & the dog get's to stay with the owner then by all means clip the coat.

Yes, I had an owner with a heavy coated Beagle that I gave a smoothie too since the "Shedicure" wasn't helping & his nurse said the The owner wanted to keep his Beagle so I gave it a Smoothie.
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doggygirl
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Username: doggygirl

Post Number: 3843
Registered: 9-2002
Posted From: 156.34.190.80
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 4:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

rpg, we did do testing. That is how I know:-) She was retriever/samoyed.

I had a purebred Siberian husky and never, ever would I shave him. It would ruin his beauty. On hot days he laid under our fan. Mylady it is frustrating and I went in reverse to you with the theory. Used to think it had to be a health thing etc.. and now I'm the other way. LOL! You have to take each dog as it comes and not decide as a rule for the whole of each breed. IMO.
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progroom
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Username: progroom

Post Number: 5438
Registered: 2-1999
Posted From: 67.65.62.45
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 5:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Majority of our poms, goldens, akitas, and collies that we shave down have patches that do not grow back.
**********

That's interesting. I have been grooming for 23 years. I have shaved lots of double coated dogs. I can not think of a single one that did not grow back correctly. I take that back, I have one Pom but she did not have good coat to begin with. She has a thyroid problem that the owner does not treat consistently.

I'm not arguing for or against the shaving, just sharing my experience.

Barb
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doggygirl
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Username: doggygirl

Post Number: 3845
Registered: 9-2002
Posted From: 156.34.190.80
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 6:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The only ones I can recall not growing back I can count on one hand. One being my own, then a Golden mix, a sheltie mix, a sheltie (who eventually did grow back a normal coat and this dog has a thyroid issue) Cannot think of others. I do find that whether you warn the person fully or not, they tend to think it is something you must have done, which is a major deterrent.
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bstylinpets
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Username: bstylinpets

Post Number: 60
Registered: 3-2007
Posted From: 76.97.105.67
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 6:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I haven't posted in a while, but here's my 2 cents...lol

Yes you can shave double coated breeds just not shorter than a # 7F against. Because it doesn't damage the tissue and doesn't take out the undercoat. It leaves it.

A #10 or #9 or #15 or MOSERS OR SPEED FEEDS longest settings with the grain however will almost every single time even on cats cause the
undercoat to look like a thyroid condition.

Do a test on your own animals try it you will see, I am telling you the truth. It damages the skin, and done to many times like that will cause the hair to never grow back in those areas.

I have tested and proved this with veterinarians in the past.

However it is absolutely ok to shave with #7 or longer blade. Hair grows back normal.

And if you can get the excess undercoat off, it is just as good as shaving for the dog. As long as Skin isn't exposed.

Hope this helps...
God Bless,
Lisa D.
President
B-Stylin' Pets Inc.

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gone2dogs
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Username: gone2dogs

Post Number: 2404
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 156.34.186.21
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 8:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When people call wiht poms and shelties and want them shaved for the summer I let them know there is a chance their hair may not come back like before...these people will not run out for testing and I do not want sit there and have the finger pointed at me because I 'ruined' the dogs coat.
People do listen especially when I mention we really only have about 6 more weeks of hot weather (thank god!! Do ya think I hate summer??)
There is a method to my madness...
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nwdpuppy
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Username: nwdpuppy

Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2008
Posted From: 209.180.202.194
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The poster who commented about the terriers and their hair becoming ruined- GREAT point! I don't know why I forgot about that point, especially since I got my start with hand-stripping wire fox terriers lol. It does change their consistency entirely.

Anyway, I talked 2 people out of shaving their golden retrievers today and instead opted for shaving their bellies and giving them a short tidy/feather trim. I generally use my own dog as an example, she's a lab/dobie mix with short hair. She pants all the time when it's hot, but it's not like I am going to shave her. Since they have no sweat glands they pant.

I also said that when we get hot, we sweat and might take off clothes but now we are more susceptible to the sun's rays. It's the same thing for dogs. Their hair protects them. They are going to pant.

I always tell people however, "I will do whatever you want me to do, it is your choice, it is just my job to give you all the options and try to give you as much information as possible."

Usually, however, when I give them that information, they go with the alternate of shaving the belly and a tidy.
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barkaboutus
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Username: barkaboutus

Post Number: 573
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 74.192.253.121
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On the sweating thing (dogs).. they actually do sweat from their pads.. I also have dogs that sweat more than I do mowing the yard (it seems)... why is it that some dogs sweat from their entire body? I know that the ones that I've dealt with that sweat from the body, normally are on a horrendous diet and have health issues. Owners say that the vet says they have "allergies" (I try to get them on a better diet)
Bark Avenue Pet Lodge & Grooming Salon
www.tylergrooming.com

"If you love your job, you'll never work a day in your life!"


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wolfhound
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Username: wolfhound

Post Number: 431
Registered: 3-2002
Posted From: 74.170.250.50
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 11:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'll add in my $0.02.
I groom in Florida. I shave all breeds. I shave tons of double-coated dogs, and in 17 years or so of grooming, I've seen about 4 that did not grow back. 3 were definitely the dog having health issues, and you could see the issues in the texture prior to shaving.
Insulating the dog from the heat? Put on your winter coat, go stand outside. Oh people sweat? Beside the point.
Put a hand on a dog with heavy coat. Put your fingers down next to the skin. The skin area is hotter, because the heat is held in next to the skin by the hair, same as you wearing a coat. Shave the hair, air comes in contact with the skin better, dog is cooler.
When I shave all these dogs, and all of them act cooler and happier afterwards, I'm going with the theory that the dog is happier and cooler. I've NEVER seen any dog that I shaved act HOTTER after being shaved.
I've seen ONE dog that sunburned. A white haired, pink skinned dog that the OWNER shaved bald, and then took to the BEACH for over 7 hours the next day. No other dog I've ever shaved has gotten sunburned to my knowledge.
Again, we shave a lot of double coated dogs. Chows, retrievers, doesn't matter.
I agree with the person who lives with the dog 24/7 gets final say.
Just based on my own experiance.
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pucci_groomer
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Username: pucci_groomer

Post Number: 549
Registered: 1-2004
Posted From: 86.138.137.130
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 12:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think it's generally accepted that clippnig a terrier will ruin the coat for future handstripping (okay, perhaps RUIN is an exaggeration, but maybe make it more difficult for a while til the coat re-generates a year on?). Why wouldn't this also be the case for double coated breeds?

In my own opinion, I really try to talk customers out of clipping double coated breeds unless there is a health issue. I do clip a handful (a couple of retreivers, a Newf, the occasional border collie). And yet I clip happily all day long terriers and gun dogs. The reason? I personally don't like the look of a clipped retriever or other double coated breed. I have a hard time making a pretty job of it. In Scotland, it's never THAT hot to really warrant it, IMO.

If someone still really wants their dog clipped off, fine, it is their dog. But I do try to educate them with what I believe to be accurate; the double coat is there for insualtion against cold and heat.

I just had a GSD in the other day that the owner asked to have clipped short. The lady said it was suggested to her by her behaviorist because the dog was panting. Uh...since when is the behaviorist a vet or groomer? The dog hadn't been groomed in a coupla years - so we pulled out masses and masses of undercoat. Now tell me that dog doesn't feel better...and he's left looking as nature intended. Meanwhile the owner was pleased that she didn't have to do somethign so drastic as shaving down that dog's beautiful coat (and it was truly beautiful).
Repeat after me....It's all about *me*
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pucci_groomer
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Username: pucci_groomer

Post Number: 550
Registered: 1-2004
Posted From: 86.138.137.130
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 12:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

nwdpuppy, I had forgotten the reason for this post. There was a recent article in a British mag called Dogs Today (August 2008) on page 70/71 in Health Matters. It has Health Myths debunked: Shaving a heavy coated dog in summer will keep him cooler. It's just a single column and perhaps you can find this article on the 'net or maybe email the publisher for a copy of emailed to you? Try emailing enquiries@dogstodaymagazine.co.uk There is also a website (just add www and .co.uk at the ends of the email address (minus enquiries@)

good luck
Repeat after me....It's all about *me*
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sarahjane
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Username: sarahjane

Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 87.201.182.36
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 1:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Darn it, pucci_groomer! I would LOVE to get a copy of that [and I am going to email the enquiries address you gave; thanks!] but living in Dubai now -- and not yet having a postal address -- it's nigh on impossible to get UK mags sent to me right now.

Thanks for the tip though. It sounds like just the sort of argument I need!
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pucci_groomer
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Username: pucci_groomer

Post Number: 551
Registered: 1-2004
Posted From: 85.189.254.251
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 2:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

sorry guys, hadn't realised that someone had already posted about terriers etc. I guess I second/third that!
Repeat after me....It's all about *me*
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doggygirl
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Username: doggygirl

Post Number: 3848
Registered: 9-2002
Posted From: 156.34.181.231
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 6:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I never shaved with anything other than a 5 or 7 so that isn't the problem with the dogs I shave.

I am just asking but do you really think us putting on a winter coat is equivalent to a dog in their coat? Are animals designed to cool off naturally, like we are? I'm just wondering. Of course some breeds are put in areas that they might not naturally want to be like a husky in Florida. LOL! I just think a coat can act as insulation and protects them. In the summer we are told to put on things to protect us..hats, long sleeved shirts..
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groomnpoodles
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Username: groomnpoodles

Post Number: 1150
Registered: 3-2002
Posted From: 71.32.152.172
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 9:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had a Newfie in the other day that the owner wanted shaved close. I discouraged it and explained about how all the dead undercoat holds the heat to the skin and is akin to our wearing wool long underwear. Told her I would brush out all the dead coat, shave the belly and clip off some of the coat, but leave a couple inches for sun protection. After bathing/conditioning for 30 minutes, HVing for 40 minutes, putting in a crate with a Sahara and 2 other fans for 3 hours, skimming off coat with a #7, I still brushed out 1.7POUNDS of dry, dead undercoat (I weighed it because there was so much of it & that doesn't include what came out during the bath/HV), before finishing with an "E" comb skim. She also pre-booked for 4 weeks and wants to keep a regular monthly schedule, since I told her that my back won't take another groom like that. She was very happy with the look and feel of the dog... and as I showed her, the air can now get to the skin to help keep her cooler.
I relate this story as an example for those who don't want to shave-down these dogs. I use examples that I read here to clients alot, which gives me credible evidence to support my theories. This will always be a controversial subject, and agreeing to disagree is the best way to deal with it. I know what my personal experience has been shaving down dogs and it's not been positive in most cases... so I opt NOT to shave for the most part.
Grooming under the Tetons
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whoopie
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Username: whoopie

Post Number: 1317
Registered: 3-1999
Posted From: 74.58.222.203
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 10:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's a theory for the poor hair regrowth after the hair is shaved closely in natural coated breed dogs.

* The hair no longer insulates the skin and the blood vessels constrict (vasoconstriction) causing loss of blood flow to the hair follicles. This may be an adaptive mechanism to reduce the loss of heat from the exposed skin area in harshly cold climates.

* Loss of the hair may cause a drop in temperature in the area that adversely affects the blood supply to the area.


Total hair regrowth may take six to 24 months, although most animals regrow hair within 12 months.

Brushing of the area, massage, hydrotherapy with warm water + Ginko Biloba oil, and covering the alopecic area with a sweater to increase skin temperature and blood flow to the skin, may stimulate hair regrowth in some cases.
Soyez proactifs dans l'amélioration des standards de l'industrie !

http://www.formation-toiletteur.net/

email : kaoumaby@videotron.ca
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vroomvroom
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Username: vroomvroom

Post Number: 1127
Registered: 1-2003
Posted From: 66.156.46.36
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 2:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As for the physics of dog hair working as a coolant, I have a link I posted on here some years ago which argues the opposite. If I remember correctly the higher the number of hairs, the more the surface volumn, the more heat is retained.

In any event, I still think the argument is moot. Unless you live in a different universe from me, you have maybe ten percent of your customers with long haired dogs who are kept brushed out. Deshedding a long hair dog in the shop solves the problem for a few weeks but shaving solves the problem for somewhere between six months and two years. As an ethical matter, I always shave. I am going to do what I know keeps the dog comfortable and cool regardless of what the dog ends up looking like.

And we all the know the problem isnt really the double coat or the length of the coat or any of that, ITS THE MATS in the coat which tug, cause hair loss, lead to infection (havent I seen that at least fifty times in the last six months)and overall poor skin condition.

I would not shave an outdoor dog in the dead of winter even here in sunny georgia. But thats the only line I draw.

And last but not least, I still want someone to tell me what could possibly be the cause of this loss of coat due to shaving. I am 49 years old, I have been shaving my legs and underarms for 36 years and the hair still grows back. No i am not a dog, but I do have a double coat under my arms and I shave that EVERY SINGLE DAY. I wish I could get it to stop growing...and yes I have used the clippers on a 40 blade when I didnt have time to shave at home. So far no damage....
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bstylinpets
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Username: bstylinpets

Post Number: 61
Registered: 3-2007
Posted From: 76.97.105.67
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 2:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That is halarious...
***Hear me totally cracking up out loud and not a soul here knows why, I am staring at the computer screen Falling on the floor laughing way out loud...***
LOL...vroomvroom... I wish the same... But I don't think there is a double coat under mine...lol...
God Bless,
Lisa D.
President
B-Stylin' Pets Inc.

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blacksheep
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Username: blacksheep

Post Number: 122
Registered: 3-2007
Posted From: 71.168.67.43
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 9:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Think about the dogs that have evolved in the hottest and most horrible conditions--jackals, coyotes, kit foxes, African Wild Dogs, etc. Every single one has a thick double coat.

If I remember my animal phys classes properly, what keeps heat in is subcutaneous fat--think seals, and bears getting ready for winter. Undercoat helps too. But plainly, a normal double coat that is properly shed out can't be bad in the heat or canids wouldn't have developed it.
Joanna, grooming-obsessed breeder of terribly indulged Cardigans
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doggygirl
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Username: doggygirl

Post Number: 3855
Registered: 9-2002
Posted From: 156.34.191.19
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 9:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

good food for thought blacksheep.
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wolfhound
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Username: wolfhound

Post Number: 433
Registered: 3-2002
Posted From: 74.170.250.50
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 11:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Umm, and if you look at the daily habits of those species, they hole up during the hot weather, and use the thick double coat to protect themselves from brush, thorns and to keep warm in the cold night time temps.
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blacksheep
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Username: blacksheep

Post Number: 123
Registered: 3-2007
Posted From: 71.168.67.43
Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 12:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't want to argue--heavens no--but the wild dog, the desert wolves, the jackals all hunt during the day.

You can look at ANY of the desert or equatorial animals. Cheetah, wildebeest, giraffe, buffalo, even the mice. All of them have a coat that sheds; the predators have quite a thick coat. Savannah and desert animals have coats to protect them from the sun, and no fat layer under the skin. Nakedness is actually associated with COLD temperatures and life in the water where your body heat is leached away--seals, whales, hippos, elephants (had an aquatic ancestor), etc.
Joanna, grooming-obsessed breeder of terribly indulged Cardigans
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bluebonbon
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Username: bluebonbon

Post Number: 2198
Registered: 2-1999
Posted From: 207.200.116.6
Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 2:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well here is my 2 cents! I have shaved a lot of double coated dogs over the years. I shaved two Chow Chows and one other large forgot what type of dog it is short the past two days. All were elderly, had problems standing and didn't get brushed or bathed by owners. One had very bad skin, no fleas, growth on back by tail. Very happy dog when done. One had very bad bladder infection-vet recommmended shave down. Very wet urine stained rear, good chance of fly infestation if not shaved. Owner not willing/unable to brush out dog. Third Chow Chow is also elderly. Owner was out of town for two months. Very matted and dirty elderly dog. Very happy to get the hair off! They may not grow back as good as before but all dogs had health improvements that would not happen with a longer hairdo. Yes, in an ideal world people would take proper care of their double coated dog. If they did, the dog's hair would probably NOT need to be shaved. Did I do the right thing for these dogs? I believe I did. Have I refused or suggested NOT cutting down a double coated dog? Yes, if I believe the owner only needed education to do the right thing to properly maintain their dog. I can only hope to educate the public on what their dog needs to have done to keep the coat looking its best. If they chose not to do what is necessary and I think the dog's health might be improved with shaving I will. I do, however, usually use a 5 or a 7 if possible. I have used an 81/2, very rarely a 10. It has to be really, really bad for me to use a 10 blade. This topic does need more research, I do agree about that.
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sage
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Username: sage

Post Number: 76
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 142.166.251.91
Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 8:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

wolfhound you sound just like my boss! :-) great post. My boss also points out that many of our purebred dogs are genetically modified to have abnormal coats.

Just a question - don't many ranchers shave off their double coated dogs along with the sheep to keep them cooler in the summer or at least to keep them from getting matted?
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hindyrose
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Username: hindyrose

Post Number: 75
Registered: 2-2007
Posted From: 98.204.55.19
Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 6:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

**Think about the dogs that have evolved in the hottest and most horrible conditions--jackals, coyotes, kit foxes, African Wild Dogs, etc. Every single one has a thick double coat.**

Sorry, but I disagree. Wild canines that are indigenous to hot, desert climates have short, thin coats, whereas cold, northern climate species have coats that are considerably longer and thicker.
Here's some pics to prove my point -

Arabian wolf


Ethiopian wolf


Tundra wolf


Artic wolf


Artic fox


Desert fox


African wild dog


Dingo


One more thing - if it were true that in hot weather undercoats act as protection against the heat, why then do Nordic wolves and foxes shed their undercoat when the seasons change from winter to summer?

Just a thought,
Hindy
~ if it's not a whippet, it's just a dog ~
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groomnpoodles
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Username: groomnpoodles

Post Number: 1155
Registered: 3-2002
Posted From: 71.32.152.172
Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 9:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Undercoat is not the protection in hot weather, since it sheds out once the days become longer and warmer. It's the top coat/guardhair that is the protection.
Grooming under the Tetons
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mylady
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Username: mylady

Post Number: 1016
Registered: 3-1999
Posted From: 72.92.182.244
Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 9:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is a very interesting thread. One thing I would like to add though, the dogs we groom have man made coats and many are not "made" for the climate they are living in. I don't think Samoyeds were meant for the Florida heat or Boxers the cold of Mineasota winters. I began my career feeling that double coats shouldn't be shaved. I have worked 6 years in a salon where we shave a ton of doubtl coats regularly and none have had a problem growing back. We even have terriers that had been clipped for years that we now handstrip and the coat has come in fine. I am now totally undecided on how I feel on this as the last thread on the topic convinced me that shaving had no affect on the coat and when I argued differently, well, I was the minority LOL, which is fine, I come here to learn and express an opinion and hear what others have to say. So now I am seeing more the other side and am back teetering on the fence. Oh well, I'll eventually fall off one way or the other.
"Pugs, not Drugs"
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blacksheep
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Username: blacksheep

Post Number: 125
Registered: 3-2007
Posted From: 71.168.67.43
Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 12:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, goodness; I said undercoat is for COLD weather.

My point is simply that when we think that clipping a coat short makes the dog more comfortable in hot weather, we're thinking like people, not thinking like dogs. We want to take off clothes in the sun, because we sweat and we have fat under our skin.

But that's not the way nature normally responds to heat. Nature responds to heat by giving the animal a dense protective layer--a shedding double coat where the undercoat can leave when it is not needed.

So the proper thing to do is get rid of the undercoat. That's the right way to address a double-coated dog who needs to be cooler for the summer. It's the way the dog is probably trying desperately to do itself, but because of diet and lack of regular grooming the undercoat is not shedding out the way it should. So as a caretaker you focus on pulling out undercoat, leaving the proper layer of topcoat that hot-weather animals need.

If you just clip the whole thing, you've left a short layer of hair AND undercoat. I.e., none of the protection from the sun that's offered by an intact topcoat, and the undercoat is still there insulating the dog against the cold.

Think about the dogs that are the most affected by heatstroke--the short-faced breeds with smooth coats. We used to have to be VERY careful when we had the Danes outside in the sun because they can stroke in just a few minutes. My corgis, on the other hand, willingly spend most of the day outside and barely pant. When I go out and pet them, the top of their coats feels intensely hot, but when I put my fingers down to the skin they are at a normal dog temperature.
Joanna, grooming-obsessed breeder of terribly indulged Cardigans
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blacksheep
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Username: blacksheep

Post Number: 126
Registered: 3-2007
Posted From: 71.168.67.43
Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 12:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I should add that it's no skin off my nose if double-coated dogs get clipped short. It's a decision made by the owner and groomer working together, and depends on a lot more than one criterion. I respect the right that owners and groomers have to weigh the various pros and cons. Factors like major matting, for example, would certainly make it worthwhile to clip. But I don't think it does what we think it does, or want it to, to make the dog safer or more comfortable in the heat of the summer.
Joanna, grooming-obsessed breeder of terribly indulged Cardigans
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admin
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Username: admin

Post Number: 822
Registered: 1-1999
Posted From: 67.65.62.45
Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 10:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just a quick admin note.

Thank you!! This topic is often very controversial, with the ability to get very heated. It has been handled eloquently and with maturity.

You guys are the best.

Barb
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rls
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Username: rls

Post Number: 1771
Registered: 4-2001
Posted From: 74.4.193.237
Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 7:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don't know if this has been mentioned.....the shedding thing, our domestic dogs shed constantly because MOST are kept in AC in the summer and heat in the winter. Their bodies temperature guages are all messed up, so they shed constantly.

I have many people who want their inside dogs clipped because of shedding, not heat. I tell them they will still get shedding, but shorter hair, and that seems to please them.

As for the heat thing. I have a 120 pound St bernard/Rott/ Bernise...whatever mutt that has a thick water resistant coat. He lives outside (here in Fl) 24/7. I believed the theory that the coat (undercoat brushed regularly) would protect him form the heat and left him unshaved the 1st few summers. He runs 20 acres as he pleases and he almost had a heat stroke many times. I could not cool him off with the hose because his coat was so water repellent. I opted to shave him so I could get water to his skin when he overheated. It worked....he is much more happy and comfortable and has not even had a glimmer of a heat stroke since I 7 bladed him. This is a well kept dog whom I brushed regularly....so you can't tell me the coat keeps them cooler. It's also easier to treat him for fleas and bathe him with the short hair. I shave him 3 times in the summer months and he grows back completely normal every winter, beautiful shiney coat, guard hairs and all.

Him and my Black and Tan Coonhoud pant the same. But the Coonhound is colder in the winter...LOL I do let them in when it's really cold.
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nwdpuppy
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Username: nwdpuppy

Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2008
Posted From: 209.180.202.194
Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have an old chow coming in next week and I didn't even question the woman when she said she wanted him shaved. What bothers me are people who bring in golden retrievers who had absolutely no under coat and are in beautiful shape wanting to get them shaved. I do my usual song and dance and generally they leave happily with a feather trimmed, belly shaved pup.

I didn't mention, I live in Seattle where the weather fluctuates on a dime. All in all I think it's much kinder to leave the dog with protection, but I always do whatever the owner's final decision is.

As far as hand stripping terriers after being clipped? I will only do it after it's been clipped only once. Otherwise it is just too painful on the dog to pull coat after it's softened like that. (Mind you the bulk of my experience is on the Wire-haired fox terrier).
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elphie_www
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Username: elphie_www

Post Number: 17
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 69.66.97.39
Posted on Monday, August 4, 2008 - 4:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just to put in my two cents. I've been grooming a lot of double coated breeds, Golden Rets, collies, Aussie sheps, Great Pyrenese (No clue on spelling today), border collies, eskis, Newfies, Shelties, and a ton of mixes, and none of them has ever had any issues with the skin, or the hair growing back, unless they had an underlying condition that was known. A lot of them come in matted or full of burrs so they get shaved closely. It's the same around here, not many people will shave them, but I also have a limit on the breeds I will do. Poms and pom crosses, if they have the pom hair, and I will not shave St. Bernards (I had someone ask me to shave down his St. this summer, she had never been groomed before, was just over a year old, and was not well behaved.) She was a handful just to bathe
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catclaws
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Username: catclaws

Post Number: 324
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 76.123.209.153
Posted on Monday, August 4, 2008 - 4:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a 13 1/2 yr old mix. Altho I don't allow anyone to call her a chow mix (I prefer Standard Pom) she surely has Chow in her. She has had ring worm all her life. I CANNOT get rid of it and I work with vets. Tried everything. We have to shave her down every summer as she is simply too hot. When shaved, her ring worm blows up every year spots all over her. A vet student came for a feew weeks and said just dont shave her this year ( 4 yrs ago). I did not shave her and no problems. Ringworm is in the environment and her immune system must be crappy. With all the bathing and brushing she was miserable. So now I use a comb and keep her at about 3/4 inch and she does fine.
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dogdayz
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Username: dogdayz

Post Number: 1118
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 76.125.98.255
Posted on Monday, August 4, 2008 - 8:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wish the people that watch my grooming videos on "you tube" would not give me such a hard time about clipping a dog that is not suppose to be clipped....they just dont understand what I do and why I do and think I am torturing these dogs. No matter how I try to to explain it they disagree with my reason...it is frustrating sometimes
Tonya
~ The average dog is nicer than the average person ~
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flutterby
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Username: flutterby

Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2008
Posted From: 82.42.177.211
Posted on Thursday, August 7, 2008 - 5:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Tonya.

I'm sorry people give you a hard time about your youtube videos. I've not actually seen the videos you are referring to.

I'm not wanting to do this I swear, though i do have a question. I found your Shih Tzu grooming vid on youtube (well behaved Tzu by the way :-) )
I thought a lot of them look "shaven" and wondered if your customers ask for this or if thats your personal style.I think the before pics of these dogs look fine, they just look like they need a bath and tidy up.
I'm more a fan of the teddy bear cut, or puppy cut as i call it in England. Shortish but fluffy body and legs, longer tail and ears. Something like this.....

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/flutterby33/S5000692.jpg[/IMG]
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dogdayz
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Username: dogdayz

Post Number: 1121
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 76.125.98.255
Posted on Friday, August 8, 2008 - 9:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Flutterby, thank you for your evaluation and that is a cute shihtzu picture. I groom a few that are similiar to that style but yes all of my customers request what they want and if it is possible and does not harm the dog, that is what I do as a "pet stylist". I know the breed standard trims but I am known for pleasing the client, not doing what is "correct" for the breed. I do offer suggestions and reasons why and sometimes they listen but most of the time people just want it short and less maintenance for themselves. I actually had a sheltie customer that wanted him shaved because they thought he was hot being an outside dog but I explained to them the need for the coat and he just needed his undercoat prepared and he would be fine....that is what I did! I like it when they listen :-)
Tonya
~ The average dog is nicer than the average person ~
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gone2dogs
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Username: gone2dogs

Post Number: 2487
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 156.34.190.126
Posted on Friday, August 8, 2008 - 8:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am with you Tonya, I have customers who love their pets BUT they are honest, the do not have time to brush and want to onl come in every 2 months so what are their options?? I try to leave as muchas I possibly can but often #4f is the ONLY option.
There is a method to my madness...
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catclaws
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Username: catclaws

Post Number: 325
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 76.123.209.153
Posted on Saturday, August 9, 2008 - 6:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I can't convince an owner to brush their double coated dog regularly and get it all then I don't have a problem shaving one one bit. I have seen too many thick haired, unkept dogs with heat stroke so if I can keep that from happening, I'll do it.
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nwdpuppy
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Username: nwdpuppy

Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2008
Posted From: 209.180.202.194
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 11:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The thing is, the dogs that are coming in are in great shape, relatively low maintanance but they are just convinced that their pet is hot. The thing is, like I stated earlier, we are in Seattle. Last week the temps were in the 90's. This week? The 60's.

I had a sheltie come in that was 13, an outside dog and had been shaved it's whole life and I didn't even question them, only asked how short they wanted to go.

Where I have the issue is with a beautiful coated, healthy golden retriever being shaved down to nothing because it's hot.

Anyway, haven't had much of an issue with it lately anyway ..

thanks for your opinions :-)
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darkangel_737
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Username: darkangel_737

Post Number: 2005
Registered: 1-2003
Posted From: 98.122.182.133
Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 6:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I had a client come in yesterday with a Samoyed that we have been waffling about shaving. The dog is short and dumpy with a thick waddy somewhat incorrect coat that doesn't shed worth a darn. The owner said he has done a ton of research, including reading on here, and it is unanimous from everyone who knows anything about Samoyeds that you should never ever shave them. The coat serves as insulation against heat and it won't ever grow back right if shaved. I explained that Samoyeds weren't designed for this particular climate and we shave double coated dogs for their comfort all the time. He said humans who live in hot climates don't go around naked, they wear clothing that completely covers them to protect them from the sun, and I said humans in hot climates don't wear parkas. He insisted on a brushout, so we shaved the matballs out of the ears, brushed the burrs and wads out of the coat, did the shampoo trick and conditioned the heck out of the hair and spent hours yanking stubborn waddy hair out of this incorrect coat that won't shed properly, at a ridiculous price.

I think some "experts" in certain hairy breeds need to deal with some incorrect coats before saying what lowly groomers should never do.
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progroom
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Username: progroom

Post Number: 6577
Registered: 2-1999
Posted From: 68.91.200.50
Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 7:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I see two other options.

1. Make the owner do the brush out. Sell them the tools and tell them to have him combed out prior to the groom.

2. CHARGE for the work involved. It sure makes number 1 a more viable option for the owner.

:-)

Barb
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doggygirl
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Username: doggygirl

Post Number: 6131
Registered: 9-2002
Posted From: 142.167.132.134
Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 2:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We had a sammy mix and my Mum used to take it to the vets office for grooming. The receptionist constantly talked my Mum out of shaving her. Finally one time the vet was out there and said "why don't you just have her shaved" Mum said she was told it wouldn't grow back right and the vet said "nonsense" right in front of the receptionist. Well the groomer did a beautiful job. My Mum even sent her a thank you card. LOL!
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merrybee
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Username: merrybee

Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 65.113.123.88
Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

dogdaze, that is a beautiful trim on the sheltie, Romeo...please let us know what you used/how you did it! (and kept the coloring!) How close is the length of coat compared to the smooth collie?
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shearmadness
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Username: shearmadness

Post Number: 1022
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.53.181.87
Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 8:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I recently broke down and suggested a haircut for a Pyr I do. Like your Sammy, she has a cottony incorrect coat (spay coat contributing to same) that doesn't blow out, brush out, etc..worth a dang!

The owner's eyebrows shot up! I was thinking, "oh, oh...I've really blown it with her" when she said, "COULD WE??"
LOL...I did and the owner and dog are very happy with a 5/8 inch trim all over. Even better, at this length, her coat actually does shed out with HVing! We're all a lot happier.
"Are you a Good Witch or a Bad Witch"
Glinda to Dorothy, Wizard of Oz
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amazon
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Username: amazon

Post Number: 498
Registered: 8-2002
Posted From: 75.187.198.208
Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 9:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My shop is in a vaction/boating area on the shores of Lake Erie. I deal with dogs that are swimming in the lake daily. I give goldens, chows, and all double coateds breeds "lab cuts" all of the time, every summer.
I have never had a coat that did not grow out to look great by the Thanksgiving/Christmas holidays.
You can't effect the hair root by cutting the hair. The hard guard hairs do grow slower than the soft undercoat.
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amysuz
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Username: amysuz

Post Number: 159
Registered: 1-2009
Posted From: 204.107.47.109
Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have the opposite question. I've been grooming a golden doodle and the wife wants the hair short for Summer to keep the dog cool, but the husband insists that the dog needs longer hair for insulation against the heat. (He said something about how the air moves the hair around and this keeps the dog cool? I think he read that somewhere.) I've tried to explain that only double-coated breeds need a longer coat for insulation against heat, and a golden doodle is a single-coated dog. Am I right? And if so, what can I tell the husband to convince him?
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rpg
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Username: rpg

Post Number: 1306
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 199.246.2.11
Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I disagree that a Doodle is a single coated dog :o) No disrespect intended.
Poodle DO have undercoat; look at your brush after you're done. I am not saying anything like a Newfie, Sheltie, etc., but they DO have undercoat.
Add in the Lab. or the Goldn Ret. to the Doodle mix and you are adding a double coated breed, so a % of every litter will have the type coat... with a lot more undercoat then the others....
Any help?
If you are in hot climate, then short and in the shade is the way to go for me.
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papsnpaints
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Username: papsnpaints

Post Number: 2634
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 208.4.190.18
Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My husband thought I needed to shave our Pyr/Anatolian Logan. He is heavily coated in the winter. I've shaved my own farm dogs for years. I don't take them down bald, usually a 7 or 5. The thing I don't like about shaving is the flies bother them worse. Plus Logan lives in the pasture with the goats and he needs some protection not only from the flies but the burrs and brush he has to work through. He loves to be brushed so I had him practically deshedded but his britches and tail were a mess. I wet clipped the britches. I used a 5/8" SOC for the body and front legs. Shortened the tail to balance with the body. He looked awesome. He still had guard hairs to protect his skin. The only problem was his goats didn't know him after his haircut and kept chasing him away.
Two months later he still looks great. I brushed him this weekend. Not that he really needed it but because he loves it some much.
Let me tell you though, I will never complain about a clients smelly dog. My big dirty dog that wades through the creek a few times a day and lives with the goats does not smell good in a car!
"I thought I was becoming more tolerant..turns out I just don't give a damn!" - unspecified cartoon

"Even dirty girls gotta get clean sometime" - Pasobrio
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progroom
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Username: progroom

Post Number: 6592
Registered: 2-1999
Posted From: 68.91.200.50
Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 7:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When I am asked about shaving or not shaving, my answer is pretty simple.

At 95 degrees outside, that dog is going to be hot no matter how much hair he does or does not have. If the coat is tangle and heavy winter coat free, then I don't see a need to shave it. The coat does protect from bugs and burrs. Ultimately the decision is up to the owner though, so I let them decide.

Barb
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amysuz
Registered Member
Username: amysuz

Post Number: 162
Registered: 1-2009
Posted From: 204.107.47.109
Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 1:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Kim. Well, yes, ALL dogs shed, but I didn't think that meant they had undercoat. So, if you don't think that poodles are single-coated, then what breeds are single-coated?

So, to try to make both the wife and husband happy, I went with a #A comb that left about 1 inch of hair on the doodle. They found that to be a nice compromise.
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rpg
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Username: rpg

Post Number: 1307
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 199.246.2.11
Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 4:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Single coated dogs:
Boxer, Dalmatian, Smooth Dachshund, Weimaraner, Rottie, hhhmmmmmmmm thinking, thinking......
Whippet, Greyhound, Italian Greyhound, Smooth Chihuahua, hhhmmmmmm what else......, Bulldogs (American, French, etc.), Staffies, some hounds not all, Boston Terriers, Bull Terriers,German Pinscher, Manchester Terriers, Great Danes, GSMD, Ibizans, Min Pins, Pointers, Rat Terriers........

Helpful?
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amysuz
Registered Member
Username: amysuz

Post Number: 163
Registered: 1-2009
Posted From: 204.107.47.109
Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 5:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ahhh, I see, all those dogs that don't need to be groomed at all - just bathed (not even blow-dryed). Yes, that's helpful. I guess I was thinking of the most hypoallergenic dogs as being single-coated. And I don't believe all the dogs on your list are considered hypoallergenic.
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hindyrose
Registered Member
Username: hindyrose

Post Number: 88
Registered: 2-2007
Posted From: 70.108.23.96
Posted on Friday, August 6, 2010 - 12:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I realize it's been over a year since this thread was active, but I'd like to post this article that scientifically addresses the "temperature" part of this issue. Even though it's not exactly an easy read, it's worth looking at.

Hindy

http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/hairlength.htm
~ if it's not a whippet, it's just a dog ~
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amysuz
Registered Member
Username: amysuz

Post Number: 548
Registered: 1-2009
Posted From: 204.107.53.153
Posted on Friday, August 6, 2010 - 2:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you, Hindy. This was very informative. I wish he had talked more about non-LGDs, but I understand his whole point was to trust mother nature and don't be so quick to shave your dog just because we humans don't wear fur coats in the Summer.
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amysuz
Registered Member
Username: amysuz

Post Number: 549
Registered: 1-2009
Posted From: 204.107.53.153
Posted on Friday, August 6, 2010 - 2:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, notice how this article talks about insulation specifically from "solar radiation" (i.e. the sun!). Therefore, if you're the type of person who's just cheap (like I am) and doesn't run her air conditioner until the house gets up to 77 degrees, I don't think keeping your poodle's hair long makes him/her more comfortable inside the house. But I would like to hear from others who disagree because I got into a big debate with one of my clients who wanted to keep her white poodle's hair really long during the Summer. Her aunt (a retired poodle show handler/groomer) told her the hair would insulate her from the heat, even inside the house. Then, on a particularly hot day last month, her dog started vomiting and wouldn't eat. The owner finally decided she had heat exhaustion (and let me cut her down a week later). The dog was fine by the end of the day, but it's really hard to know for sure what made the dog sick.

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