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Groomers BBS » Animal Ills and Injuries » EYE & EAR PROBLEMS » Ear Cropping « Previous Next »

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Daffanee (1cust31.tnt2.collinsville.il.da.uu.net - 63.46.122.31)
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello, I'm adoping a 9 week old Doberman and I'm not sure if i should get her ears cropped, How painful is the surgery ? Will she be in pain for the whole healing process ? also how long does it take the ears to heal? I just want to get some info. on this before i make up my mind. Thank you ?
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Timber (spider-tm083.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.83)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 5:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi, yes the cropping is painful after the pain medicine wears off. Unless you plan on showing the dog there's no reason to crop her ears. It's just for looks otherwise. It takes at least four weeks. No there is no pain for the whole healing process. It's less pain for the dog all the way around if it's just going to be a house dog and if she has a good blood line and you wish to breed her on down the line, the ears won't make any difference.
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Leslie Easterwood, DVM (adsl-64-218-173-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net - 64.218.173.75)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 5:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Daffanee,
I fear that you may be swamped with responses on this controversial subject, so I will give you my slant on the issue.
I, personally, prefer cropped ears on the breeds where cropped ears have become common place. It is a personal preference, and you are wise to get all the facts before making up your mind. The surgery is usually performed at 10-12 weeks of age, and usually requires a 2-3 week recovery period. Dobermans are left with a relatively long ear, so the recovery and bandaging period is longer than say with a schnauzer, where the ear is left much shorter. After the edges of the ears heal and the sutures are removed, then the ears are generally not particularly painful, but they will be painful for most of the first two weeks. All dogs react differently, so some appear to be more painful than others during the healing process. The bandaging process is variable depending on the veterinarian's preference. There are numerous protocals out there, so you will have to ask your surgeon about the normal schedule he or she recommends.
Leslie Easterwood, DVM
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Particentral (207.2.228.195 - 207.2.228.195)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 6:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have to say I fall into both of the categories. I do not feel it is always a requirement, and yet I own Schnauzers with cropped ears. I had them done, because the males ears were standing straight up and were very large. He looked like a donkey. I was worried about the ears getting torn when breeding him. I had the girl's done because I wanted them to be the same.

They were sore for about a week. They wore Elizabethan collars for a week to ten days after the surgery, but it didn't seem to phase them at all. They ran, and played and acted fine. The removal of the stitches was the worst part of it.

Think about it, and make the decision that works for you. I was told that it also decreases the ability to hear as well, but I don't know about that. Pheobe hears a pin drop!

And it didn't really seem to bother them that much. Really it didn't and Pheobe was 20 weeks old when they were cropped due to her being so sick when she was small. (Mange, skin infections, no mother....3 1/2 weeks old when I got her, and her three littermates)
PS I also have two SNZS with full ears. Personal preference.
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Kim (d131.goes.com - 208.195.247.131)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 7:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

i have a 9 year old Dobe who had her ears done at about 10 weeks. She is a real baby about everything and had no trouble at all with her ears. The one thing i can say is to find someone who does this a lot. I got a recommendation from someone who has had dobes for a long time and my dog has the most beautiful ears. I think that Dobermans do not look like Dobermans without their ears cropped. You will have a very loyal and loving and attention demanding dog for many years. Good luck!
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Rev (spider-tk081.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.206.211)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 8:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you do crop, be sure to find a veterinarian who is experienced in ear cropping and knows how to do it right. I've seen some pretty awful ears from bad cropping.. both awful looking and some that seemed to be excruciatingly tender to the touch even years later.I personally like the looks of uncropped schnauzers.. but not if the ears stand up! LOL It certainly adds to the elegant look of dobies, but they're elegant even without cropped ears, so it's just your personal preference.
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Particentral (207.2.228.195 - 207.2.228.195)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 8:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, it just occurred to me that some of the vets here are using implants to stand the ears without the taping.

If possible, check with the local Kennel Club, or a show breeder and get their referral to a great "ear man" (or woman). I was fortunuate enough that the vet I use shows SNZS. HOWEVER! He does a lousy Dobie trim, and I would find a different vet for them. He also does a great Boxer, but the larger the ear, the harder time he has.

And I have seen one SNZ so bad we identified him when he was stolen by the trim! Poor guy! The vet didn't charge for it, but you cannot replace them. LOL He had 1/2 inch ears!

Be careful, and see dogs if at all possible.
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Houndlady (1cust58.tnt44.det3.da.uu.net - 63.36.69.58)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 9:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have to agree with the above post. Unless you plan on showing the dog, it is personal preference. If you can stand it leave the ears natural, every surgery has risks and involves pain, so if you don't crop you avoid possible problems. But if you would be unhappy with natural ears you should probably get them done. Should you decide to get the ears cropped do a lot of research like suggested above.

I like the natural ears much better in all dogs unless they are schnauzers with stand up ears. Only one exception, Giant Schnauzers, I like them much better cropped. Weird, isn't it?
The general trend seems to be to leave ears natural because it is the humane thing to do, but many people fight for cropping because of written breed standards for example.
The vet hospital I work for will not crop but they still dock tails. ???
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Bart (ip100.ts17-2.mn.dialup.ottawa.cyberus.ca - 209.195.66.100)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 9:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What a can of worms to open!!!!!!
Yes, ear cropping is painful, you can lose puppies while they're under, AND there is no guarantee the ears will come up. The countries in the world that still allow ear cropping are a MINORITY and in likelyhood it may not be for much longer if the animal activists have their way.
O. K. that's the bad news. I've shown and bred St. Schnauzers for over 13 years and have shown dogs both ways with no prejudice, BUT here are the realities. There is no greater incidence of ear infections with an uncropped ear because those breeds traditionally cropped do have high ear sets and the ears are mobile (not pendulent) so there's plenty of air circulation. Ear cropping is very cosmetic. A badly shaped, low set, overly thick leather, will glare at you like a neon sign. Most breeders of traditionally cropped breeds in North America never bothered to consider the importance of the ear quality when breeding - that's why they are big and low and ugly.
A well cropped ear can disguise a multitude of faults. It visually lengthens the length of neck and the head, and it narrows the visual width. A low set ear is harder to see when the ears are upright. The original shape and thickness of leather is completely concealed ( to the detrimate of future generations ) The Irish Terrier was cropped up until the beginning of 19th century and look what cute ears they've got with a little effort! Breeders should start making some effort in improving the quality of ear BEFORE it becomes banned (and truly it will, as more and more vets are against it for good reason) In the meantime while we are still dealing with the ugly ears - yes crop the ears if you are planning on showing the dog who is a lovely specimum except for those less then great ears. If you were lucky enough to have a pup with nice set and leather LEAVE THEM! How else can we make progress unless the dog judges and the public see good specimums?
If your dog is just a pet - save him/her and yourself some grief and love your slightly less then perfect pet for who she/he is. Bart
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Dragonbrn (spider-tm023.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.53)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just my opinion here. (and like some body parts, everybody has one :}). I LIKE cropped ears on a Doberman. They look like a weird pointer cross with a natural ear, especially if they also have a long tail. I also like Boxer, Great Danes, schnauzers, Brussels griffons, bouviers, Briards, and Am Staffs with natural (drop) ears, if the earset is something close to correct. Otherwise, I prefer to see them cropped. I do agree that you need to find an experienced vet, and that you need to research whether s/he has experience with your particular breed (I've seen too many dobies with great Dane crops). Think about it. I would not presume to tell you not to crop your puppy's ears, if it is what you want to do. Just remember...you have to look at it for a lot of years, and the older the dog gets, the less leeway you have to change your mind.
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Tikkytoes (proxy2-external.cdrrpd1.ia.home.com - 24.4.252.101)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 11:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I left my red dobies ears natural and I have gotten terrific support from strangers about how they prefer the natural ear and how it softens the dobie expression--she is still recognized as a doberman---so question--but people continur to approach me and congratulate me for leaving the ears---on the other hand my brother never misses a chance to tell me how elegent her head would have been and should ve been ---after breeding miniature schnauzers for 15 years and supervising numerous crops--and losing 1 puppy to ear cropping I made a proactive choice not to crop
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Rev (spider-tk024.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.206.184)
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bart, you've made some very good points that I've thought about too.. that because of cropping many breeders haven't focused adequately on ear leather and set; and that this will come back to bite them when--because I do believe it's when, not if--cropping is eventually banned on this continent. Like it or not, there's increasing pressure to do just that, especially with most other countries banning cropping and docking. It's very interesting, and good, that you've experienced no cropping prejudice in showing standards. I'm with you, Houndlady, liking the appearance of a giant schnauzer's ears cropped but the others naturally folded; I've never even seen an uncropped specimen of the other breeds Dragonbrn lists, except for dobies, which take some getting used to but are still very handsome. As for tail docking.. that will probably be banned at the same time. From just the appearance standpoint I can't say that would bother me.. except for having still more hair to comb out on a cocker! :)
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Thistle (1cust138.tnt10.sfo3.da.uu.net - 63.23.28.138)
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 9:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I had a Bouvier in a couple weeks ago with natural ears. I guess with Bouvies, Barts point about not developing the ear really hits home. Although it did really soften her face, she kinda looked like an OES-cross.

I had a min.schnauzer who's ears I had cropped. Fortunately, my vet at that time was known for cropping. Ashley had the most beautiful set of ears I'd ever seen on a schnauzer. The after-surgery care was a bit of a trial...had to clean the ears with peroxide twice daily to prevent scarring...this part, neither of us liked and I felt horribly guilty for putting her through it. Although I eventually forgave myself, I seriously doubt I would ever go through it again unless I was sure the dog would wind up with mule ears....Oh, wait,my JRT has mule ears! *sigh*...well, I've never heard of cropping JRTs, so mule ears it is! I did see a Yorkie once with cropped ears...yecchh.

And Rev, you won't really have to worry too much about combing out excess hair on a cocker if the "natural look" reaches the states...ever seen a natural cocker tail? Yikes! All scraggly and thin. Not only are breeders going to have to pay attention to the ears, but something has got to be done with those tails! Other breeds as well...schnauzer tails are just as bad...and they all seem to have a layer of fat at the base of the tail which turns skinny at the point where the tail would've been docked. Not a pretty sight.
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purrsincat (a010-0767.nsvl.splitrock.net - 63.252.86.5)
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, I've had 2 dobes- both with natural ears. On the 1st dog, I simply couldn't find a vet to do it. On the 2nd one, I decided I like the natural ears better. If you think natural ears make a dobe not look like a dobe, then maybe you should check out dobermans from England and Australia, where they do NOT crop ears. It makes for a less aggressive look, which can be a good thing in this day and age of homeowner's associations which like to dictate which breeds are allowed and not allowed! I also tend to get a lot of remarks from fellow pet owners who had never seen a dobe with natural ears- they are usually commenting on how handsome the dog is. If you keep them natural, you will get used to the look, and, if you are like me, when you see a crop job, usually just see how bad a job was done on the ears. Most crops I've seen are not the handsome show crop, but a butchered, short job in which the ears still may not stand up.
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Bart (ip124.ts3.mn.dialup.ottawa.cyberus.ca - 209.195.84.124)
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 4:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does anyone recall how ear cropping started? It was done on ratters and fighting dogs to minimize a holding point or injury. The peasants ( yes peasants, these type of dogs with a few exceptions were rough and tough stock) would just slice the whole ear off when the pups were a couple of weeks old and the dam was left to clean up the leftovers. Yum! Fortunately we've come a very long way and now it's become fashion. The length of those upright ears are far too long for working purposes. The choice is ultimately between the owner and the vet - let your conscience decide. Bart
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catsmom (206.70.251.252 - 206.70.251.252)
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 4:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Purely cosmetic, unnecesary mutilation of an animal. Groomers on this board have defiled owners for wanting mats brushed out purely for their own vanity because it's too painful for the dog, yet it's okay to put the dog through surgery and a lot of pain because you "like the way it looks"? Why do you find one type of pain and torture acceptable and the other not?
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Joyce (usrkc-ppp-179.kc-primary.net - 209.176.130.179)
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 5:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Catsmom,
I think I can probably answer this. It's probably pretty much the same as putting our ownselves through, facelifts, tummy tucks, breast augmentations, and having the surface ground off our nails in favor of those pretty acrylic ones.....when we still would never allow our hair dresser to rip our hair out by the roots :)
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Kate (client-151-198-136-163.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net - 151.198.136.163)
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 6:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah yes....cosmetic surgery....wouldn't it be wonderful if we could accept wrinkles as the rewards of wisdom, and each and every creature, human and animal just the way it was created? I know, utopia. But I do think we "prefer" a certain look just because we are used to it. We wouldn't dream of slicing off a beagle's ears, but it would lengthen his neck, too, and make a more elegant silhouette. It's just an old habit, folks, and habits die hard and usually take courage to change. If we just didn't DO it for a generation then we'd be used to velvety soft ears on dobes and boxers and jaunty, happily curved wagging tails on poodles and the thought of chopping them off would strike horror into the hearts of animal lovers everywhere...and cause embarrassment that our ancestors used to do such things. I think boxers with floppy ears look too dim for words, but after my 50th I'd be used to it and I applaud the folks who are deciding to let their animal companions go au naturel!!
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Dragonbrn (spider-we012.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.195.22)
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 7:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In the specific case of the Doberman, Herr Dobermann designed the breed to be prison guards. The cropped ears and docked tails, along with the slick body style and coat, gave attempting escapees, or otherwise aggressive inmates, much less to grab while the dog was in the process of subduing the prisoner (not pretty).
And, Rev,
you've seen specimens of most of them if you think about it...As Good As It Gets, the little Brussels in the movie, had natural ears. There are several Boxers and Great Danes with natural ears that have made a splash, and finished their championships, in the past couple of years, dropped ears have always been allowed in the Briard standard, and there are finished champions with natural ears out there. I KNOW you've seen schnauzers with natural ears...they can be really cute and soft looking, or look like a canine/donkey cross, depending on the heaviness of the ear leather. (The standards and giants don't seem to have as much of a problem with ears standing up straight from the skull as the miniatures do, for some reason. Probably because there aren't as many of them?) Many people choose to not crop their bouviers' ears, and, again, it softens the head. The Am Staff looks like a smaller American Bulldog with natural ears.
Catsmom,
I much prefer the idea of a one-time incident that the dog will forget to a sadistic program of torment time after time when owners refuse to maintain the coats on their "beloved" pets, yet expect us to produce a miracle and make it look like it should if the coat was maintained properly. Dogs aren't insane...they don't like, and REMEMBER, a repeated painful experience, and the person who caused it. I personally much prefer working with an animal that trusts me and hasn't had to learn that the grooming experience can be less than pleasant.
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Rev (spider-tk011.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.206.176)
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 7:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm with you, Kate! It IS a habit.. yep, they often look very elegant when done right, but our preference is because we expect them to look that way. I'm certainly willing to get used to the softer look :) and I hope more breeders will exhibit that way and allow their puppy buyers that option, which few do. When it's done and treated correctly I don't think it's torture and cruelty.. any more than neutering and spaying are (which are also outlawed in many countries!) But the purpose of cropping (and most docking) is definitely cosmetic only.. if it were for ear health we'd be cropping cocker ears! I personally think docking is harder on the dog.. throws off their natural balance etc. and often leaves the tail tender. BTW, I've got every wrinkle and grey hair that's come along --I earned those and am gonna keep 'em!
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Bart (ip29.ts16.mn.dialup.ottawa.cyberus.ca - 209.195.64.29)
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 8:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dragonbrn, You're right alot of Mini Schn. have those totally upright ears that look like satellite dishes. The MS has a dash of Terrier blood added to reduce the their overall size and the Breed Standard requires the ear to "break" just ABOVE skull level. The ratio of their ear leather is usually quite thin. The Standard and Giant Schn. have NO terrier blood (despite confusion early on as to which Breed Group to place them in) and the Breed standards require the ears to break AT skull level, plus the ear leather is heavier. In the 1920-1940's the Brits were having a heck of a time with these two breeds which they were convinced were terriers like their own. There were many articles written at that time lamenting how awful these ears were and why couldn't they get them to break properly above the head. HA, HA, Well it only took them a few decades to figure that one out.
Tail docking - Another can of worms! Honestly I can sleep better with that one and here's why. Since Sweden banned tail docking about ten years ago the need for necessary amputation due to injury skyrocketed among the sporting and working breeds. Docking a tail on a fully developed dog is just horrible, dangerous and extremely painful. It is removing a limb. I know, I unfortunately had to go through it ONCE. And never ever again. However I do dock my puppies tails. At two or three days old puppies are still very premature compared to humans. They can't see, hear, and their nervous system is not yet fully developed (it progresses as time goes on ). There is little or no blood and the pups hardly notice. They do however notice dewclaws being removed.(I guess they're already sensitive about their feet) But rather now then ripped off later, I think. Even Human circumcision is crueller "cause those poor little guys do have a fully developed nervous system. O.K. Lets not go there.
The breeders in those countries with banned docking and cropping are trying shrink both appendages by selective breeding. When they are shown with some of those outlandish tails they hold them near the base where they were previously docked and hide the rest of the tail up behind their arm so the judges eyes aren't too distracted. Bart
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petgroom (px2cl.gv.wave.shaw.ca - 24.69.48.14)
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

just to add to the can of worms.... I am more fond of the look of un-cropped ears and see a lot of them in my area. TAILS however is a whole different can of worms.... we adopted a pit bullXboxer and every time she wagged her tail (a LOT!) she banged it up against the walls until it bled. Now our house looked like an abbatoir and I tried EVERYTHING to heal the tail from complete wraps to you name it. When it was time for her spaying, I talked to our vet about it and she said "if you don't have it docked, you're looking at constant open wounds and possibly gangrene in the future". So we had her tail docked (at about boxer length) and dew claws removed (she was an ENERGETIC dog and we live in bush country) at the time of spaying. She was fine afterwards and didn't seem to miss her tail and I sure didn't miss washing the blood sprays off the walls everytime someone entered our house. Sooooo... I remain in favour of most tail cropping and against most ear cropping as I have never seen a health problem as the result of un-cropped ears. JMHO
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Leslie Easterwood, DVM (adsl-64-218-173-52.dsl.austtx.swbell.net - 64.218.173.52)
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2000 - 8:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Daffanee,
Okay!!!!!!!!! It seems we have had a WIDE smattering of opinions and views from both sides of the issue, so now it is up to you and your veterinarian to decide what is best for you and your new family member. Good luck, which ever you decide. Thank you for letting us air on both sides of the issue.
Leslie Easterwood, DVM
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Kat (08-ta04wf.idsi.net - 208.201.30.110)
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2000 - 3:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry Dr.Leslie I have to add one more thing..

hehe..

Pure bred dogs are really mutations of characteristics that the origional breeder of the dog wanted to amplify in a canine.

Such as pug noses, it's been exagerated to such a degree that many haven't even a pug nose, but a flat nose that sits right under their eyes..

Floppy ears on a dog aren't natural... if you look at the wild dogs they all have erect ears.. related species such as wolf, coyote, fox. even unrelated species have erect ears. raccoon, bats etc.

People have created the breeds, but were able to take short cuts.
Cropping ears is much easier to do than breeding it out. Tail docking the same.
This is a topic I could go on and on about from noses to tails to coat..

It's still a personal choice, unfortunately not for long.
I have a feeling that once all breeds are floppy eared and long tailed we'll see the health problems follow..

I've bred approx 70 bouv pups over the years, all but 3 went cropped,
The cropped pups did very well after surgery, other than acting like they had something itching their ear on occassion they were fine.
hehe..the pups with the ears on the other hand were tortured by their brothers and sisters.. The ears are like chewy toys. Poor things really got it when they tried to sleep..I had to resuce them when they were tired..

Best to you..
Kat.
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maj_horst
Registered Member
Username: maj_horst

Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12-207-91-44.client.mchsi.com
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 7:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know if this is the proper forum to ask this question:
I have a 11 week old miniature schnauzer- sweet, smart, etc. Perfect in every way. I requested uncropped ears. He is perfect in every way, EXCEPT his left ear sometimes sticks out almost horizontally. I believe, ,"hey no one is perfect in every way" but it bothers the wife. Any comments, please.
}
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valharly
Registered Member
Username: valharly

Post Number: 556
Registered: 4-2001
Posted From: 1cust492.an1.cle11.da.uu.net
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 7:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You can always buy some leather bond and glue the ears in place to keep them down. Otherwise they COULD stand straight up and look really funny. Here is my pup before glued ears
Bella before
And here is after
Bella after
You simply glue the ear tips close to the outer eye corner on a freshly groomed face.
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maj_horst
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 9:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you for your response. Further Question, please: This "leather bond". Where does one obtain it? Are the ears then "trained" after a certain period of time, so that future applications are not needed? T. Rex is now 11 weeks. Is there a time period where this is / is not effective? Sorry for the barrage of questions. Your response is most appreciated.
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valharly
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 9:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You can buy it at Cherrybrook online. Just add www and .com to the name and you will find it. I found with my pup it lasts a week to 10 days and then I leave them loose for a week then reglue. She is 5 1/2 months old now and they are staying down this time beel loose 2 weeks. It is mainly important to do it while thye are teething. Once teething is over they will stay up or down whichever way they are!
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loves
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 10:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My two cents here, I really think that those schnauzers with uncropped ears that stand up, really look cute! Get the same effect as cropping, but without the surgery. Of course, the ones that stay flopped over are adorable also.
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maj_horst
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Valharly: Thanks. Do you have to tape it down or something, or hold it in place, while it sets up (how long) T. Tex is a real squirmer. Where are you? Is Cherrybrook in US ? (I will try right now)

loves: Yeah, but imagine a pup with one ear just right, the other like an airplane wing ready for takeoff!
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valharly
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My pup's half sister from a previous litter has both ears standing.. NOT the same effect as cropping, they look like DONKEY ears! Anyway you do not have to tape, the glue sets in under a minute. Yes my gal is a wiggle butt too but I have been able to get them set pretty easily. I just put glue on the ear tips, then leave it about 30-45 seconds before placing it where I want it on her cheek close to the eye. Hold the beard while placing so he will hold still, you do not want glue in his eye! LOL
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valharly
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I forgot, I am in the USA in WV.
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ferurizonly
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use Speedy Sew fabric glue for glueing ears. never had a problem. Works great on Schnauzers and Rottweilers. Have to hold ear to the head for awhile, but works, then leave it on till next grooming. keep a check on ears for any irratation, but never had one myself.
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doggygirl
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 1:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I picture that and it sounds adorable!
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loves
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 2:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

maj horst, but your pup is still young, both could end up standing perfectly straight.

valharly, perhaps not the same as cropped ears, they aren't pointed and very very small as some are cropped, but they are upright and I still think either way (up or flopped over) looks cute. Adds personality. I also much prefer either one to cropped ears, especially those teeny tiny ones with almost no ear left.
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thedotteddog
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 2:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If ear cropping were not allowed in the USA as in other countries, I imagine breeders would have to breed for good ear set then.
As it stands now, why bother to breed for good ear set if they usually get cropped off anyway.
I don't mind the look of the cropped ear but really prefer the natural look. I don't like the donkey ear look of the natural ones that stick straight up tho. I sure get my share to groom like that tho.
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maj_horst
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Thanks, all for the input. This AM I ordered the "tear fix" from Cherrybrook. They assured me that that was the Leather glue. Rex has an appointment at the groomers' on the 17th- I should have it by then, and will give it a try. I am optomistic, as the "offending ear" (according to wifey) will actually lay perfectly, if pushed forward a bit, and stay there until he shakes or after a rough & tumble play bite game with the Golden Retreivers- a "feel good game" the 3 play after dinner time. Thank you again.
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AW (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 4:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

i love uncropped ears personally and would never ever put my dog through pain just because I wanted it too look a certain way. Dogs don't know or care how they look so why put them through the pain and risks of surgery.
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borzoimom
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 8:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dotteddog, whether schnauzer ears stand or flop isn't something that can be bred for. In the countries where they don't crop, the breeders of danes, schnauzers, boxers, etc. use ear weights and glue to get the ears to "fold over correctly and stay in place. Basically the ear weights break the cartilage in the ear and keep the ear muscles from strengthening to hold the ear up. Most, if not all of the breeds where cropping is the "norm" now allow the dogs to be shown cropped or uncropped and I have been seeing uncropped dogs starting to place in the show ring which is a good thing. I am not against ear cropping, but I don't think it should be required to do well in the ring.
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thedotteddog
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I stand corrected borzoimom. I was under the impression that all aspects of a dogs makeup or carriage was bred into them by careful selection and breeding.
What do I know. I am not a breeder.
I agree about ear cropping, I prefer them uncropped if they set well, and don't think they should be required to be cropped.
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dawg
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 9:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Basically the ear weights break the cartilage in the ear and keep the ear muscles from strengthening to hold the ear up.

~~~~~~~~

i was under the impression that the cartilage isn't so much broken as formed. that the tissue is soft enough to mold only to a certain age. what you do during that time frame impacts how the ear sits. even cropped ears have to be taped to stand correctly, or the cartilage cannot hold them up. i don't know how many good crop jobs have been ruined by lax owners who don't dress the ears properly.

i just think those who don't understand will think "breaking the cartilage" is just as cruel as cropping. taping, gluing or weighing ears does not hurt in any way and only holds the ear in a certain spot until the cartilage solidifies to hold the earset there. just like joints are open and bones aren't yet calcified, no? it takes time for these things to happen and that's your window.

that's how i understand it all, anyhow.
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shearmadness
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The term "break the cartilage" can also be interpreted to mean form a break or fold.
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winterroo
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Post Number: 48
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Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 3:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a 4 month old neapolitan mastiff pup and had the ears done, but in this breed the object is to get the ears to lay in flat over the head when they've been cropped. Well, one of his ears lays in like it is supposed to, and one flops out(they have a very short crop, but there is still enough ear there to flop), and I was wondering about this ear glue...I was wondering how well it holds and does it rip the hair out? He is going through teething right now, so I know it is critical right now to try to get this taken care of. I have tried taping, banding, etc, but I have had no luck with any of it. Any reply would be great...
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dawg
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 7:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

winterro, i'm no person to talk to about techniques of ear crop maintenance... i have no clue what would work for a neo. have you done a search on the internet for different approaches? i know i've seen cropped boxer pups with popsicle sticks taped into their ears to make them stand up. i've also seen a cardboard cone and just tape. but their crop is considerably longer than a neo (obviously) and i couldn't even begin to guess what would work best for you. have you talked to your breeder? every one usually has "the" technique they swear by (all different, of course! .)

good luck and give a smooch to that mushy puppy face for me!!
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winterroo
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Dawg, yes, I have done all that. Their ears are very short and don't cater well to posting. I have taped many a Dane ear, and unfortunately, these are nothing like the Danes! I am in the middle of dealing with the breeder on it, I need to have him looked at by someone up here that she knows...she is about 20 hours away from me, so I can only send her pictures, and the crazy ears don't show up as much in them. I think I may try that sewing stuff or whatever it is...Thanks anyway
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shearmadness
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

dawg, I know the position of cropped Neo ears and I would think that gluing the rogue ear down would work. As the hair grows out, the glue will loosen and yes there is usually some hair loss, but it is temporary. Good luck.
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maj_horst
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Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 4:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Opinions, please. Schnauzer T. Rex is 3 months old today. His left ear sticks out like an airplane wing, right ear fine. Per your suggestions, I have ordered ear glue which is supposed to arrive monday. Rex's grooming appointment is tuesday. Have I missed the time where this is likely to be effective if I glue the ears on tuesday? I am thinking of also ordereing ear weights to apply when the glue gives up in a week or so. Is it a good idea to apply the ear weights before re-glueing a week or so later?}}
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valharly
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Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 5:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would not use ear weights at all! They can backfire and actually strengthen the ear muscle and make the ear stand higher! I would just glue, and you are nto too late. They are cutting teeth till abotu 6 months old, and anytime before then you can retrain the cartilage. I would just glue as soon as you get it, and when they come loose reglue them till they stay in the desored position. I just put my pup's ears back glued yesterday and founf a huge molar she must have cut a new one of last night. She will be 5 months tomorrow. Make sure when you glue them you don;t pull them down too far as you will pull the fold out of the cartilage. You want to make sure they fold just above the skull.Here is 5 months old
Bella
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maj_horst
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Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 6:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you Valharly. Will do as you suggest. BTW: Change subject. I am tired of seeing wife's Panther as my comp wallpaper. Does anyone have a downloadable picture of a schnauzer, preferrably a "Phantom" (?) (some have referred to Rex as that- white beard & white bushy eyebrows) and floppy ears? He is a real babe magnet- many say he looks just like me. I think Rex is being insulted?
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valharly
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Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 7:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like a Black & Silver! They are gorgous and was the color I was looking for when I got Bella. I groom a male that is to be Bella's hubby when they both grow up! Here is his picture
Troy
Alas he is cropped with an absolutely horrible crop...
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maj_horst
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 1:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This may be a totally off-the-wall thought, but has anyone ever tried to do a Botox injection in the ear muscle to aid in training to lay properly?
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lillianl@jps (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 12:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My Schnauzer is 3 years old. This is the first time I have heard about glueing . His ears look like donkey ears. I could not find a vet who would crop them. Is there anything I can do about his ears now?
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thedotteddog
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Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

At this point in his life, I would just love him like he is. The ears are set after the dog gets his permanent teeth. I'm sure he is sweet and even if he does have donkey ears, you love him.
Just remember this for next time.
You wouldn't want to put him through ear cropping at his age. It would be a lot of pain for nothing but cosmetic effect.
Just love him the way he is.
Dot
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schnauzershop
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Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I had a client come in last year and said they had her ears done a month or so previous, she was two years old... she wasn't sensitive or anything when I groomed her and they were perfect. I had an 11 month old done (she had kangaroo ears... HUGE)... and they too are perfect with no sensitivities.
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thedotteddog
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Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm, live and learn I guess.
I wouldn't do it but its not my choice.
I'm all for individual choice.
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rudy magliaro (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 6:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hi i am a first timer on this site .i find info very interesting.question..how do i grow a thick coat on a bouvier.?i want to show him.thank you rudy from nova scotia ,canada
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amysuz
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Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 3:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"i know i've seen cropped boxer pups with popsicle sticks taped into their ears to make them stand up."

So, I get a last minute call at 4:00 pm yesterday. One of my regular customers says she just bought her son a very expensive German Shepherd 3-month old puppy, and he smells really bad. They just picked her up from the breeder, and they want to bring her straight to my house for a bath, which I agreed to do. The son mentions that one of his ears is bothering him, but the breeder said not to be concerned - the irritation will be gone by tomorrow. This is a very sweet dog. She was obviously very insecure and just submitted to everything. The brown water poured off of her and she didn't even mind the HV. I pick up her ear leather, OMG, it's completely red and rashy on the inside. I wish I would have thought to smell it for an infection, but I just told the owner the dog should really see a vet tomorrow. Then I start cleaning the other ear and there's obviously a fair amount of glue inside it. The owner was shocked - she knew the breeder used sticks to try to train the ears to stand up, but never thought they used glue to keep them there. Well, the ears weren't standing up, maybe they will as the dog matures? I don't know - I have no experience with this. Then the owner notices the tip of the tail was missing hair...and skin. It obviously wasn't a fresh wound, but a wound nonetheless. Okay, maybe I'm naive, but should a breeder really be handing over a puppy that's filthy, smelly, and wounded with glue and a rash in its ear? The owner just kept saying the breeder told them the dog came from champion blood lines. Well that may be, but one of the last things I muttered was, "I hate breeders." Am I over-reacting or is this normal?
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progroom
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Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 3:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The glue wouldn't concern me, assuming the breeder used the correct glue.

The filthy dirty dog would concern me. Champion bloodlines means nothing. It just means that somewhere back in the dog's history was a nice dog who finished his/her championship.

I don't hate breeders. I dislike bad or irresponsible breeders. I love good breeders. This doesn't sound like a good breeder.

Barb
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amysuz
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Posted From: 204.107.53.153
Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 4:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And the ear irritation and wounded tail doesn't concern you?
The owner wanted to know if the tail was docked - I didn't think GS's got their tails docked, do they? I just assumed she was wagging her tail and smacked it against something.
If gluing sticks in a dog's ears is normal practice, what would have caused the irritation?
What is the "correct" glue?
And what does it mean that the ears aren't even standing up (after all that)? Will they stand up later?
Thanks, Barb!
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progroom
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Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 4:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The wounded tail is a concern only because the breeder didn't mention it. With those long tails anything could have happened to it, but they should have been told.

At 3 months old, I think there's a good chance of upright ears. Some breeders will glue or tape an ear in place as a precaution. Years ago I bought a Greyhound puppy and we taped his ears for awhile. There's only a small time frame there and then it's too late. I didn't want to take any chances of waiting too long and finding out he had a wonky ear and I should have done it.

I don't know the correct glue. I can't even remember what we used on our guy. It was a long time ago. :-)

Anything could have caused the irritation. That in itself, and the tail in itself wouldn't be red flags to me. All of it put together and not discussing the things with the buyer would have been a red flag. Unfortunately, most of the pet owning public knows nothing about dogs. The high price tag, the registration, and the fact there were champions somewhere in the line look great to someone who knows nothing.

Barb
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dawg
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Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 4:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

i think what Barb means is that breeders often use a special glue to help ears set properly before their cartilage fully forms and hardens, at about 4 months of age. Shepherds on a whole do not have their tails docked.

and i agree with Barb that a breeder who even allows a wounded tail or filthy state even occur without remedy before sale are not postmarks of a good and caring breeder.

seems like more education on the parts of both the buyers and the 'breeders' would benefit the dogs, in this case. sure hope temperament and structure are at least sound on this dog...

jmo.
Do You Qualify to Be Alive? - Chris De Burgh

Strong Man Kaleb

My Norse Horse
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amysuz
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Posted From: 204.107.53.153
Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 4:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"before their cartilage fully forms and hardens, at about 4 months of age."

I'm confused. So, if this puppy is only 3 months old, and the sticks have already been removed, does that mean the ears will never stand up because they were removed too early?
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progroom
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Username: progroom

Post Number: 9449
Registered: 2-1999
Posted From: 66.142.40.4
Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 5:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It really depends on the dog and the dog's genetics. Some will have occasional floppy ears up through 5 or 6 months old, then they will stand just fine.
Some never need braced, others do.

I had a foster puppy, breed unknown. Likely he was mixed with more than enough to count them all. He had hound dog ears up until he was around 4-5 months old. Then one day, one started to stand, soon the other and by 7 months old he had fully upright ears.

Barb
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amysuz
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Username: amysuz

Post Number: 973
Registered: 1-2009
Posted From: 204.107.53.153
Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 5:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah okay, that's exactly what I wanted to know. It just seemed strange to me that the breeder went to all that trouble with the sticks and the glue, and the ears were still floppy. I didn't know if the sticks were supposed to stay in until the ears could stay up by themselves. I'm glad that's not the case. It's so hard to know if this will turn into a really beautiful and proud GS. Her stance was so timid - back curled, tail between her legs, etc. But I'm sure that's because everything around her was so unfamiliar. Her coat seemed nice, but I'm obviously not an expert.
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progroom
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Username: progroom

Post Number: 9451
Registered: 2-1999
Posted From: 66.142.40.4
Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 5:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They are a very sensitive breed. My guess is it was just so much going on at once.

Barb
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milinea
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Username: milinea

Post Number: 41
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 76.97.136.190
Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 6:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Skin Bond is the correct glue. Hard to say what the deal is with GSD's ears. Did the breeders not give any info or instruction about the ears with the puppy? I would think if they were still floppy, they would have given some instruction on what to do. They may stand on their own and they may not.

In dobes, the ears are put up on a support structure, or folded over the top of the head until sutures are removed and then the taping begins. The longer the ear the longer it takes to stand on it's own. With our dobes we tape and leave on for anywhere from 3 days to a week and take it down, as soon as they start to droop they get taped up again until they stay standing on their own. You cannot just leave the glue, supports, and tape on the ears indefinitely, that's what causes sores and irritation, and in extreme cases much worse. On a breed like Brussels Griffons there's virtually no taping.
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catsmom
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Username: catsmom

Post Number: 2153
Registered: 7-2001
Posted From: 72.88.229.147
Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 8:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, ladies but this discussion makes me sick. And Botox?

What does it say about us that we are one of the extreme few countries in the world where this is sill legal?
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winterroo
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Username: winterroo

Post Number: 745
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 184.97.203.192
Posted on Monday, August 8, 2011 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It says that we still have freedom~for now.

I have had cropped ear dogs all of my adult life, and in fact I just got another Neo pup and had his ears done with the breeder before I got him. I like the look, plain and simple. There is very little pain associated with this and all of my pups have always bounced back very quickly without much thought of what is going on with their heads. In neos, they even sew buttons to the tips of the ears and thread the tips together to make them come up over the head...again, the pups are none the worse for the wear.

My dogs live charmed lives as do MOST cropped dogs, yet many uncropped dogs end up in rescue and shelters~I don't think this is a coincidence...I have a friend that did Dane rescue for many many years, and in many cases, she couldn't take uncropped dogs because they were hard to place and she didn't have excess room for unadoptable dogs...

To each his own, if you like natural ears, don't crop, I don't care, but don't look down your nose at me or anyone else that chooses to do so.
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catsmom
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Username: catsmom

Post Number: 2154
Registered: 7-2001
Posted From: 68.38.176.182
Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 - 9:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Freedom also means that I get to have an opinion and if I feel that inflicting surgery on an animal purely for owner vanity is cruelty, then that is my "right" and my "right" to state it.

Apologizing in advance, Barb. I know the whole "if you don't have anything nice to say..." thing, but if no one ever says it, if everyone who is against it remains silent, things never change and the cruelty for vanity continues. I looked back through this thread and found that I had responded once before but I'll repeat what I said:

We vilify owners for not brushing and combing and wanting their dogs dematted because it's too painful for them and we won't inflict pain just to cater to their vanity. Yet we are fine with putting a puppy through anesthesia, slicing through cartilage and cutting off part of their ears all in the name of "I like the way it looks". That's no better than the clients, IMO. As for cosmetic surgery, that's a choice humans make for themselves. It's not forced on them nor the decision made for them. When the dogs can decide on their own and willingly choose cropping, then I'll be fine with it. Until then, I'll stand with all the rest of the civilized countries of the world that can look past their own "ME, ME, ME" and consider what's best for a living creature instead of what they want for themselves.

As for the question about the GSD, get him healthy, love him to death and show him what a wonderful world this can be for him and if his ears stand, cool. If not, equally cool.
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progroom
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Username: progroom

Post Number: 9454
Registered: 2-1999
Posted From: 66.142.40.4
Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 - 10:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This ladies is where the to crop or not crop debate ends. :-)

I want to stop it before it gets ugly. You two have stated your points well and politely. Thank you.

Barb
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borzoimom
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Username: borzoimom

Post Number: 2076
Registered: 3-2003
Posted From: 173.23.115.250
Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rarely do GSD ears not stand. And the owners need to realize it is normal for the ears to flop/stand/flop etc. while the dog is teething. I had a shepherd whose ears did not stand until he was almost 12 months old. Most of the shepherds whose ear stay flopped are so because of poor nutrition in the first 6-12 months of age or rough play with other puppies can break the cartilage and cause them to flop.
Lisa
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amysuz
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Username: amysuz

Post Number: 976
Registered: 1-2009
Posted From: 204.107.53.153
Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 - 4:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Lisa! That's good to know. The breeder didn't give the customer any instructions. I just got off the phone with owner, and she said they just came back from the vet. The ear is fine - there's no infection and she said it looks much much better than it did on Sunday. And the vet wasn't concerned about the tip of her tail being wounded either. He didn't wrap it or give them any medicine or anything. HOWEVER, the vet declared that this GS will have hip dysplasia by the time she's 6 years old. He could tell because her back is curved, with her hips lower than the rest of her back. It's funny, even I noticed the dog was walking kind of funny, but I thought she was just timid. Now my customer is all pissed off that she's possibly going to have to take him to small claims to get her money back. I really don't feel sorry for her - it's so easy now with the Internet to do research. I'm sure she could have found a list of check points to look for in her new GS puppy, and she could have rejected it before she paid for it. Ignorant people really bug me.
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borzoimom
Registered Member
Username: borzoimom

Post Number: 2077
Registered: 3-2003
Posted From: 173.23.115.250
Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 - 7:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually GSD's are supposed to have a sloping topline (look at show pictures). The curve you are seeing in the back is a roached back. It is a fault in AKC conformation but many schutzhund (sp?), working lines of GSD's have that back. Most vets do not know the proper standards for the breeds. Him saying the dog will have dysplasia by age 6 is a ridiculous statement. If the dog is radiographed dysplasia-free at 2 yrs., it is not genetics, but instead age related. Most GSD's do have hip or back problems as they age. Your client should have done their homework before going "dog shopping".
Lisa
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amysuz
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Username: amysuz

Post Number: 978
Registered: 1-2009
Posted From: 204.107.53.153
Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 - 7:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you so much! I will let my customer know. Obviously, I'm very ignorant too, but at least I know my ignorance and I do research when I need to.
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underdog
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Username: underdog

Post Number: 1823
Registered: 4-2003
Posted From: 69.46.211.62
Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 10:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

actually it's not that rare to find a GSD with one ear up & one down. I see them all the time. They can definitely take awhile to come up. I believe my breeder contract said to allow 8 months, but my pup is now 9months & they've been up for awhile. They do go up & down during teething & growth periods. As far as Working Line GSD they don't have a roached back. My boy is straight. Something we pride ourselves on instead of those silly crouched looking things they call GSD. JMO.
Well-behaved women seldom make history- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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bluebonbon
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Username: bluebonbon

Post Number: 3246
Registered: 2-1999
Posted From: 99.89.238.254
Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have 2 Brussels Griffons, one with came with cropped ears and the other I opted not to crop because I prefer the cute uncropped look for Brussels Griffons.
The early bird gets the worm, UNLESS the night owl beat him to it.

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